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HH - When "Good" razz is Not recommended

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listening	HH - When "Good" razz is Not recommended		Lead	[-]
Posts: 371 10/02/08 02:13	Tags : None I'm going to put a whole hand history and the commentary that followed in here. If anyone has a question - ask here or in any forum I post in and I'll answer here. When I have time, I'll come back and explain more... The Original Post: 1st) i limped due to an a A and a 2 behind me, i should do this all the time correct? 2nd) should i have folded 4th? i called due to it being only 1 SB and 5 BB pot and if seat 4 hits a brick then i could safely say i was ahead, is this good reasoning? 3rd) seat 4 clearly hit a pair on either street 4 or 5, i value bet on 6th could there have been any reason to value bet 5th or is that really thin, assuming that they both could have quite big draws and i may be dead on 6th if i bricked? sorry if this was all a little obvious im still fairly new to this game and just about to get stuck into some hardcore reading thanks in advance Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter) Seat 1: $13.20 Hero: $24.95 Seat 3: $12.55 Seat 4: $5.95 Seat 5: $0.95 Seat 6: $6.55 Seat 7: $7.45 Seat 8: $6.45 3rd Street - (1.60 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 7:club:___folds Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart:___calls___calls Seat 3: xx xx A:spade:___completes Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart:___calls Seat 5: xx xx Q:heart:___brings-in___folds Seat 6: xx xx 9:diamond:___folds Seat 7: xx xx J:spade:___folds Seat 8: xx xx 3:spade:___folds 4th Street - (5.00 SB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club:___calls Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade:___calls Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart:___bets 5th Street - (4.00 BB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club: 8:heart:___checks Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade: 5:spade:___checks Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart: 6:heart:___checks 6th Street - (4.00 BB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club: 8:heart: 4:spade:___bets Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade: 5:spade: 9:heart:___calls Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart: 6:heart: 4:club:___checks___calls River - (7.00 BB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club: 8:heart: 4:spade: 2:diamond:___bets Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade: 5:spade: 9:heart: xx___folds Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart: 6:heart: 4:club: xx___checks___folds Total pot: (7.00 BB - $3.50) My first response: 3rd complete-in 4th raise to charge the Q or get them out 5th - bet rest seems ok as to this: "1st) i limped due to an a A and a 2 behind me, i should do this all the time correct?" Never do it. You have an Ace, it's just not showing. You limp like this, esp at this limit, and they'll put you on a brick in the hole. That means the A, who actually has (97)A and was going to fold will come in. Then you get beaten by a worse hand and can't bluff because you have no fold equity. Or, someone else limps and the BI takes away your pot. You have A37 and your hole cards are paired - it's a good hand. Maybe limp here if you have (74)8 or something - not this. Serious Player replied to me: re: bet 5th Really? I don't see myself betting this ever. Lis- Do you play a lot of .25/.50? The way this hand went, bet 5th. One of the basic philosophies of micro play, I think, is no free cards. If OP had played 3rd and 4th more aggressively, then the check by the 6 on 5th would look like a check/raise and he might check behind. Betting out from apparently behind is sometimes a good idea, like in this hand on 5th street. Replies from two players: Serious Player:: No, I don't normally play that low. The lowest I normally play is $2/4 and I would never bet on 5th there vs 2 likely better draws and possibly 1 made hand trying to deceive. High Stakes Superb Player: Come 5th street I'd just be thrilled to win the hand which is exceptionally weak against both opponents potential hands. I doubt I'd make another bet. Completing 3rd and calling 4th is the extent of my play here. Lis - re: I would never bet on 5th there vs 2 likely better draws and possibly 1 made hand trying to deceive. Nor would I. But as much as higher stakes players think betting 5th is an awful play, in this hand the way it was played at these stakes, it's the best move, IMO. At higher stakes, if this 6 checks, he is about 60% to be being deceptive, hoping for a check/raise. At this limit and with this play, it's about 60% that he's paired. And if he's paired and has a brick in the hole, very likely, he'll fold unless he puts OP on a brick, also. If OP gets raised here - he can absolutely believe the player has a made 8 at least. The chance is there is one three-card hand and one possibly better draw. Betting out in 2nd place is something you do at all limits multiway. No reason not to do it here. There are things about this specific hand that make this seemingly bad advice the best I can give. I'm going to get to explaining more in the next couple days.
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listening		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 371 10/07/08 01:05	1st) i limped due to an a A and a 2 behind me, i should do this all the time correct? Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter) Seat 1: $13.20 Hero: $24.95 Seat 3: $12.55 Seat 4: $5.95 Seat 5: $0.95 Seat 6: $6.55 Seat 7: $7.45 Seat 8: $6.45 3rd Street - (1.60 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 7:club:___folds Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart:___calls___calls Seat 3: xx xx A:spade:___completes Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart:___calls Seat 5: xx xx Q:heart:___brings-in___folds Seat 6: xx xx 9:diamond:___folds Seat 7: xx xx J:spade:___folds Seat 8: xx xx 3:spade:___folds I want to just take this 3rd street and look at it. So, first, this is .25/.50. I think it was Stars, but I don't think it matters. What we know about micro is: there is a characteristic kind of bricker who plays at micro. This is the "limp a brick, complete with three to an 8." Some are so shy of betting, they also limp three card 8s. Now, here is the OP, and he has a very nice hand. His hole cards are both paired and while he has a 7 in the door, it just means the strength of his hand is disguised. This might call for a limp at higher stakes where your opponents will know limping a good 7 is standard and this keeps them from the knowledge that you have an excellent 7. But here, at .25/.50, you need to complete-in. You do this because one of the things you can assume about 85% of your opponents is they are unconscious - that is: they make the most basic assumptions and don't know how Razz is played by competent players. Here, when the 7 limps, someone holding a very marginal hand, a decent 9 or rough 8, will complete. This opponent looks at the limp and assumes a J in the hole. Or maybe a 9, but a worse hand than theirs which very easily is a worse hand than OP's. So we don't know if the completer has something really good, something marginal, or is just completing with a J themselves to get it HU. Completing should do a couple things - one is: keep out the riff-raff hands and another is let him know if someone has a much better three-card hand. Even at .25/.50, someone looking at a xx7 completion and holding (42)A is going to raise. But if he has an 8 or worse back, he is more likely to just call. OP also said this: ...i limped due to an a A and a 2 behind me ... Don't overvalue wheel doorcards. Having an A in the door doesn't say anything at all about what cards are in the hole. OP could have had his same hand only ordered (73)A. Is he going to limp then? Wow, what a huge signal that would be to the other players: "I have a big card in the hole." But - he didn't complete. So in this hand we can only assume both the other players have at least two cards better than 7s. And that isn't much informatuion to go to 4th street with....
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listening		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 371 10/10/08 23:10	4th Street - (5.00 SB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club:___calls Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade:___calls Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart:___bets So here we are on 4th street not knowing where we stand relative to the other players. When Seat 4 catches the A, we'll assume it didn't pair him as we can see two other aces. A board like this looks scary as hell, but don't let your imagination fill in the blanks with wheel cards. Here is the opportunity to make up for the passivity of 3rd street. OP needs to raise. He needs to raise in the worst possible way. 1 - it would be nice if the Q folded, so make him call two bets cold. 2- If Seat 4 really has a big hand, he should take the opportunity to reraise. If he flat calls, then you can put him on a brick, or at the very best an 8. If he does three-bet, then you can put him on a smooth 7 draw or better. You do this on 4th because it is a small bet street. You do it so if you stay in you get some fold equity. You do it because information is the most important thing you can have in poker. You do it because sometimes people do catch the case Ace and pair. I have, many times. Yes, you might decide to fold fifth if you catch badly and he catches well again. There ya go. Right now, you need to play so you can decide what to do if you get to 6th or the river.
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listening		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 371 10/10/08 23:26	5th Street - (4.00 BB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club: 8:heart:___checks Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade: 5:spade:___checks Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart: 6:heart:___checks At the end of the regrettably short, but excellent Razz chapter in Super System (one), there is a list of 15 sort of - "Razz tips." Number 11 is: "Except against very good players, allow yourself to be 'trapped.' That is, if a player checks to you, assume he's showing real weakness and bet whenever you think you have the better hand." And Listening's Rule #1 for micro Razz? NO FREE CARDS. If the guy is slow-playing, you'll know soon enough. If he check/raises, so be it. That's a note and acquired info on him for future games. Bet this terrible made 9 into this board. If Seat 3 hasn't folded, and if he has a big draw here - he will raise it. If Seat 4 reraises him, or even calls, you can think about giving up your hand. If they both just call, then you are all drawing. OP's draw is probabaly, but not surely worse than one of them and is possibly better than the other. Now, some players at micro are so very bad, even with big draws, they refuse to bet until they are absolutely sure they have the best hand. You can't account for them. Unless you are confident in a read that says one is this passive, you raise here, see what happens and make an assessment of your hand strength in relation to theirs. I know a lot of players at higher stakes are going to check here. Maybe I would against very good opponents. But even at 5/10 I am betting this 5th street. Being at micro makes it even more necessary to do so. The problem, once again, is information. Say you take the free card. What if Seat 3 paired that 5? Looks like a good pair card candidate to me, being the only 5 we've seen, I believe. You let this guy stay and and he still has some kind of three-card hand he called with originally. Now you are giving him a chance to catch a good card on 6th and stay with what might be a great draw and take the hand. There are few even very bad players who will call two bricks on 5th in the face of these other two hands. Last Edited By: listening 10/10/08 23:30. Edited 1 time.
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listening		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 371 10/10/08 23:37	6th Street - (4.00 BB) 6th street Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club: 8:heart: 4:spade:___bets Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade: 5:spade: 9:heart:___calls Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart: 6:heart: 4:club:___checks___calls River - (7.00 BB) Hero: A:diamond: 3:heart: 7:heart: 9:club: 8:heart: 4:spade: 2:diamond:___bets Seat 3: xx xx A:spade: Q:spade: 5:spade: 9:heart: xx___folds Seat 4: xx xx 2:heart: A:heart: 6:heart: 4:club: xx___checks___folds Looking at the river and Seat 3's play, we see he is an abysmally poor player. Once OP, who has been so passive bets, we assume if we are the opponents that he has made that 87. The best boardlocked to a 9 draw in the world is no good and Seat 3 should have folded on 6th. OP really lucked out here with his 7-perfect on the river. Wouldn't he have like it better with 4 or 5 more BBs in the pot?
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